Forumesque 9

Barry Harris (born December 15, 1929) and slightly younger Leroy Williams have been making marvelous bebop music together since 1969.  The bass chair this week at the Village Vanguard is the even younger (but still a bop master) Ray Drummond.   If you care about jazz and live in NYC, you must go.  You don't have to like it.  Go anyway.

---

My masterclass tomorrow still has room.  In fact, as far as I can tell, hardly anybody is coming.  Email ethan.teaches(at)gmail for instructions.

---

Peter Hum offers the first review of Live at Smalls!  I'm in great company there, Bruce Barth and Dave Kikoski, and I see that there other records by heavies like Aaron Goldberg (in a collective with Ali Jackson and Omer Avital) and Sam Yahel nearby.  Thanks Peter for giving us some space in a crowded market.  Speaking of Omer Avital, he joined me and Dave King for a hilarious "All of Me" at the Eliat jam session two nights ago.  Great bassist, of course.

---

Also, thanks for everybody that responded to the "John the Rabbit" query.  I ran down all those leads and I'm still looking...

---

Forumesque 9 is an opportunity to weigh in on recent posts and anything in the contents.    Factual corrections are welcomed;  general questions are fine too.   The comments automatically close after a week.

UPDATE:  Comments running to two pages.

01/23/2012

« previous | Main | next »

Comments

[Philip]

Hi Ethan, the mp3s should be in your inbox...

[Alex Haines]

thank you very much Ethan (and Red) for your input. I can appreciate that for someone like Konitz, pure improvising is the ONLY way to improvise. As in, that's what the definition of improvising is for him. I would be interested to know which side Mark Turner and maybe Kurt lie on with regards to pure improvisation. Would they agree with you Ethan and Red, and say that it's a great thing to aim for but not always relevant? I can imagine Kurt being with you on this. I'm probably way out of my depth talking about this btw, so I won't take it much further.

I love your comment on bebop not being as improvised and it makes perfect sense. Would love to hear more about this. I sense an update. Ha.
thanks

[greg]

i'm hanging on every word of this andrew hill/ron carter/paul motian thread, because i think it's one of the greatest one-off collabs in jazz.

ethan, i'd send you mp3's from the mosaic select if i had access, but they are available on spotify for free (listed as the "capitol jazz vaults series). the tracks are "ocho rios" (first version), "diddy wah" and "the dance."

i'll be damned if that ain't motian. i think you can hear it especially after comparing the two versions of "ocho rios" (the 2nd one has ben riley).

some one get these tracks to ron carter!

FYI - the michael cuscuna-produced personnel & track list is here:
http://www.mosaicrecords.com/discography.asp?number=MS-016&price=$44.00&copies=3 CDs

[Ethan Iverson]

LISTENING TO ANDREW TRACKS NOW Thanks Philip.

OK, "Ocho Rios" The first cymbal hits sound like Paul, kind of tentative. A few fills rattle in a Motian-esque way but I'd never guess the overall feel of the track to be Paul. He's being a "studio musician?" Ron is not on electric but plays a simple vamp on electric-sounding acoustic. Not a successful track, although it's interesting to hear Pat Patrick take an alto solo.

"The Dance" is medium tempo swing. Ron is faster than the drums, pushing it along. I think it IS Paul, but he's not really comfortable. A fish out of water! The only records he made around this time were with Keith, Carla Bley, and Charlie Haden. Charles Tolliver sounds good of course. Andrew plays a little more straight ahead than usual, kind of like on Joe Hen's OUR THING. Good blindfold test!

"Diddy Wah." Man, it really sounds like Ron is on electric now, but I guess it isn't. (Only the slides give it away as acoustic.) This is one of those "boogaloo" tunes Andrew wrote for Alfred Lion in the wake of Morgan's success with "The Sidewinder." Holy shit, Motian playing funk. He's not giving Higgins any worries. Since I know what to listen for, I can tell that it is Paul, but if I didn't know in advance I would never suspect it was him.

Wow, that was fun! Thanks again Philip, I've been meaning to re-investigate for years now. I can't believe Paul didn't remember the date. He was so emphatic that it didn't happen! He remembered other dates I asked him about, like Eddie Costa with Wendell Marshall and the "American Jazz Quartet" with Bill Smith, John Eaton and Richard Davis.

Maybe everybody was high -- it's not that focused a session. I can certainly understand them not rushing to put it out.

awesome

[Ethan Iverson]

@Greg: Your comment came in while I was listening. I've yet to use Spotify...Anyway Everyone Else can go there and check 'em out. You're right! It is Motian but I'm not as thrilled with the music.

@Alex: I can't really speak for Mark or Kurt of course. But one of Mark's tunes on the new ECM record with Billy Hart has no improv at all. Playing on one of his hard tunes he is a one-of-a-kind improvisational threader, of course. That said, Mark has plenty of preset material to draw on. One night on tour in Italy he played an incredibly accurate 1958 Coltrane on a blues. My jaw was on the floor.

@ATI: props for the "It's Motian!" call.

@Matt, Red, misfitswearit: Thanks for following along!

[Naes]

Unless we're talking to total novices who can't fathom improvisation, I think there's danger in defining jazz as some kind of harmonic language. A jazz purist can then automatically discount TBP. A classical snob can jump in and say, there's nothing here that this or that composer didn't go beyond. And a scholar of American music could legitimately point to the blues or older African-American music as the really unique stuff of American harmony. So why do we care? Because to consciously cede to the music, listen, and play together as a band -> is a beautiful human thing. If we don't all basically side with Lee Konitz for that reason, we're losing something vastly precious. As you said about Miles in the Lester Young/Miles Davis post, you can *hear* compassion. That is awesome......All that to ask, have you picked up the Miles-Wayne-Herbie-Ron-Tony 1967 "Bootleg" release? Does TBP plan to record with any Sam Rivers or Paul Motian-like figures before they pass?

[larrytate]

if you ever get the chance to do a masterclass when you're in minneapolis i know for a fact their would be people, these new york dudes are missing out.

[Philip]

Glad that's all cleared up then, though perhaps it's a bit of a shame you found the tracks to be lacklustre... But yeah, they're certainly 'interesting failures' at the very least.

[Ethan Iverson]

@Naes: I had planned to record with Motian next month...of course, the message is, don't wait! TBP has talked about Ornette, but I don't think it will happen. But a long-time hero will be showing up with us next year, stay tuned.

In re: improvisation-- my final comment is, "Why is Lee Konitz instantly identifiable in three notes?" The reason he is so singular is not because he improvises, it's because he has a language.

@larrytate: thanks for the support! Aw, my people back home. Thanks.

@Philip: I totally loved this whole process, including listening to the tracks you provided. Please keep in mind that Hill, Carter, and Motian are three of my all-time favorite musicians. Therefore, I may be being too hard on them.

As I wrote in my big post on Paul,

http://dothemath.typepad.com/dtm/the-paradox-of-continuity.html

"he was arguably the most profound late bloomer in jazz history."

I hear this Hill session as a transition for Paul, not as a personal statement. Since I love Motian so much, I want everything to be stamped with his indelible signature, and I didn't hear that this time.

Even before reading your comment I was fantasizing about a later Hill/Motian confab, from the '80s or '90s. Imagine if they had made recent a duo record!

[Ben]

I know you offered a final comment on improvisation, but I'm a little late to the conversation and hoped you might expound a little more... I just listened recently to a Piano Jazz show with Jason Moran (it's available to stream online at http://www.npr.org/2011/07/29/138819479/jason-moran-on-piano-jazz), where he plays a version of a Ravel song that he's expanded on to include some improvisation and Duke's "Single Petal of a Rose," also expanded to include some improv. He and Marian McPartland are discussing the tunes, and he describes "Single Petal" as being almost classical music. Although it's really irrelevant in the bigger picture, what about this tune does in fact make it jazz? The fact that Duke wrote it and played it? How about the Ravel piece - when Jason Moran expands on it and adds improvisation, does that make it a jazz tune? If a classical composer uses harmonies associated with jazz, can that become a jazz tune?

In the bigger picture, of course, the classification is irrelevant and good music is good music, but I found this discussion particularly interesting after just having listened to the Jason Moran episode. And really, that is some great, great listening to my ears - he and Marian McPartland do a duet version of Bemsha Swing that really worked for me. Any chance of hearing you on Marian's show someday?

[Ethan Iverson]

@Ben: Well, if Jason Moran is playing it, it's jazz! I'm not sure how to answer better, really. He's so connected to what jazz really is that even his Brahms sounds like jazz.

I've frequently wondered if we need more names for genres in "jazz."

I was on Marian's show in 2002 or so. I hope that tape it doesn't show up again! I was really green. Great lady, though.

[paul]

not sure if anyone else has gone, but I'm heading over to the vanguard tonight to check out barry, it's been a few years since I've seen him play; and he's a national treasure. I'll report back on listening notes adn thoughts if this thread is still open.

[Ethan Iverson]

@paul: great!

[paul]

the set started with a Jazz Moment straight out of the twilight zone: Barry kicked off the set with "Isn't She Lovely", a Stevie Wonder tune. I was speechless.

Barry clearly had Powell on his mind, he played "I'll Keep Loving You", "I'll Remember April" and "Somebody Loves Me". Leroy Williams had a great feature on "Sweet Georgia Brown".

I will second Ethan's sentiment, go down and hear Barry Harris, Leroy Williams and Ray Drummond play some jazz this week, you won't regret it. 25 bucks, I can't believe the vanguard hasn't changed their price at all in the past 10 years.

[Derek]

Hey Ethan! Could you further elaborate on combining the standard pattern with 4/4? This sounds like a fun thing to practice but I'm not sure im doing it correctly. Do I take the first example from wikipedia and play it with 4/4? Or is it more like the last example where it makes use of the triplets?
Thanks!!!!

[Ethan Iverson]

@paul: thanks!

@Derek: The second example, in 12/8. Run that alongside a bar of 4/4 bebop. If you get that, run it slowly alongside two bars of bebop -- whoa! Try to feel the four as a three.

[Tim Dries]

Hello Ethan,

Since I read your article on jazz from 1973-1990, I have been checking out some great music from this often overlooked, recent era of jazz history.

I read Gary Giddins' book "Rhythm-a-ning" to get a feel for what the jazz scene was like in the 1980's. It seems like everyone (maybe just Gary Giddins and Stanley Crouch) was really big on David Murray and Arthur Blythe. I just bought a used copy of Lennox Avenue Breakdown by Arthur Blythe. I double checked to see if it was on your list, and I did not see it. I've only had a chance to listen to this album a few times, but I think it is very good.

Thanks for your blog and the great music you produce!

-Tim

[Ethan Iverson]

@Tim: I dig both Murray and Blythe. One of the first times I went to the Vanguard it was Blythe with Kelvyn Bell, Bob Stewart, and Pheeroan AkLaff. Great gig.
For Murray the WSQ remains my favorite stuff. I'd like to listen to all that music from that scene again someday.

[M. Maxwell Howard]

Ethan,

Are you familiar (or anyone in TBP, Dave specifically, I guess) with the works of Alfred Schnittke? I'm thinking of the piano concerto... "The Radio Tower has a Beating Heart" reminds me a lot of it: epic melody with dissonant polytonal stuff happening up above. If you don't know the work, I highly recommend it!

[Bruce Smith]

It's great to read all the posts recalling past gigs... nothing compares to being there and experiencing the music live. When we can't, we attempt to re-create the event through recordings and the memories of others. But still, try to see as much live music as you can - it's the best way to support artists (aside, perhaps, from a large monetary endowment). Thanks for all the inspiration, Ethan. The sounds from St. Louis are still ringing in my head. I talked to some people at the Guild in Pittsburgh this week; looks like we may be getting TBP back soon. I'm headed to DC this evening to catch Mehldau live. Have a great gig in Michigan.

[Ethan Iverson]

@M. Maxwell Howard: I love the Schnittke Concerto for Piano and Strings! I even have the score. What an mind-blowing piece. That certainly could be a reference for "The Radio Tower Has A Beating Heart," but the work of Albert Ayler is as well. Thanks

@Bruce: Very cool. Live is where it's at, no doubt. The human connection gets more distant; we must keep tending the garden of non-computer interaction.

Nice to meet in St. Louis, and thanks for all the support.