Forumesque 9

Barry Harris (born December 15, 1929) and slightly younger Leroy Williams have been making marvelous bebop music together since 1969.  The bass chair this week at the Village Vanguard is the even younger (but still a bop master) Ray Drummond.   If you care about jazz and live in NYC, you must go.  You don't have to like it.  Go anyway.

---

My masterclass tomorrow still has room.  In fact, as far as I can tell, hardly anybody is coming.  Email ethan.teaches(at)gmail for instructions.

---

Peter Hum offers the first review of Live at Smalls!  I'm in great company there, Bruce Barth and Dave Kikoski, and I see that there other records by heavies like Aaron Goldberg (in a collective with Ali Jackson and Omer Avital) and Sam Yahel nearby.  Thanks Peter for giving us some space in a crowded market.  Speaking of Omer Avital, he joined me and Dave King for a hilarious "All of Me" at the Eliat jam session two nights ago.  Great bassist, of course.

---

Also, thanks for everybody that responded to the "John the Rabbit" query.  I ran down all those leads and I'm still looking...

---

Forumesque 9 is an opportunity to weigh in on recent posts and anything in the contents.    Factual corrections are welcomed;  general questions are fine too.   The comments automatically close after a week.

UPDATE:  Comments running to two pages.

01/23/2012

« previous | Main | next »

Comments

[Hank]

Ethan,

Just wanted to say that if I didn't have work each time, I'd probably be at tomorrow's class, along with the other two, so even if the numbers look small there are some of us out here who really want to come. I'm going to request off the moment I see the next date posted. Thanks for offering such a great opportunity!

Also - thanks for the random Twin Peaks fact. Wouldn't have seen that coming in a million years. I probably just wasn't listening close enough but I guess I kinda assumed that a lot of the instruments were just synthesizers.

[Simon Gurofsky]

Now that performing tunes outside of the traditional canon of American musical songs has broadly become accepted practice in the jazz world, why isn't Tom Waits being shown any love? He's written many a beautiful tune (and not just the ones that are self-consciously in a "jazzy" idiom), but off the top of my head I can't think of any significant jazz renditions of his music. Of course, that might just be my ignorance . . .

[Ethan Iverson]

@Hank: Thanks. I may do several in February to get things rolling.

@Simon: H'mm. I don't know all that much Waits, although I love what I've heard. My teacher in that canon is Dave King, who adores him.

As a general rule, the more bluesy/folk/roots music the original tune is, the harder to make it your own as an improviser. Not a hard and fast rule by any means! But I'm convinced that's one of the reasons why W.C. Handy has had the currency he has had, from Ellington to Armstrong to Jason Moran last month: he wrote pop piano scores, easy to appropriate for jazz purposes. I don't think many jazz artists have covered Robert Johnson or other more "authentic" country blues artists. From what I know, Waits is pretty down home.

[Chris Weisman]

Paul Motian has been my favorite drummer and jazz composer since first hearing him as an undergraduate jazz guitarist in 1995, and has remained so into my post-college years of drifting back into songwriting and ostensibly non-jazz music. His loss was a BIG DEAL to me. I had this thought thinking about his legacy: Imagine a difficult-changes-based-music jazz group hiring for example a bass player that DIDN'T LEARN THE TUNES OR FORMS but just LISTENED REALLY HARD LIKE MOTIAN. At least my experience of being in what could loosely be called rock bands (anything but "indie"!) has been that often the different members have wildly different music education backgrounds: one woman might have grown up playing old-time fiddle and classical clarinet, one guy used to be a heavy jazz trombonist, and a music teacher is tripping on the tonal ambiguity of a song brought in by another guy who doesn't even know what notes he's playing. While most often the contemporary jazz group is quite literally all on the same page. Now don't get me wrong: 1) I'm not arguing for more frankenstein eclecticism in any "style" (we have enough!), surely we want a unified music from a band 2) I think rock has A LOT to learn from jazz (and does, just look at where the majority of college jazz musicians end up now). Now Motian got away w his not-rehearsing-just-listening approach because he was a master w all this insane credibility. But you don't need to be a "master" or to have played w whoever to bring a fresh perspective (literally) to a band tightly negotiating the same chord/meter-change ride. By engaging NOT w the ride but rather w the broader SOUND and FEELING, like Motian did when he was playing material new to him, you might really loosen things up for the better -- wake the other players out of the abstract grid -- no matter who you are. Of course: I can imagine this experiment going VERY POORLY depending on the player. But I also know particular ear players who would NEVER be allowed to sit in w a post-Mehldau/Rosenwinkel-Turner/etc. band, but who would KILL IT if jazz could make a little more space in its art. Music that would run like water through jazz like Motian did. The proposal: more wildcard spirits in jazz groups -- like the joker in a deck of cards -- don't rehearse w them, just tell them when the gig is. This is part of Motian's legacy. Let's not let it die w him (RIP Paul).

[Ethan Iverson]

@Chris. I love it. I second your post in every and all details.

[Ronan Guilfoyle]

Killer interview with Jim McNeely Ethan! Amazing what a life he's had, and what a memory he has......

[faq]

Was going to ask a question, but thanks to Chris Weisman instead! It's rare to read a music blog comment, especially, with such purpose, insight, and common sense.

[Simon Gurofsky]

Ethan,

I think I get what you mean about Waits being "down home"; a lot of his songs employ an especially heavy, bluesy rhythmic approach that might be difficult to deploy in a jazz context. But let me submit for consideration:

A minor-key ballad, "Soldier's Things":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS_J9ONoNQk

A tango (I think; anyway, latin-sounding), "Swordfishtrombone":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvS5JKZ5GCk

Pure schmaltz, "Take It with Me":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dixxse4dpQ4

Mid-tempo swinger (no real melody beyond the bassline, just a minor-key ostinato and maybe some fun for the drummer?):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewvkauIMmbQ

There is LOTS more, ranging fairly widely across styles.

I'll stop acting as Waits' representative now and let the thread go on in peace. :)

[Ethan Iverson]

@Ronan: Thanks! Your interview with Jim is great, too.

@faq: solid

@Simon: Thanks for the tips...

[paul]

ethan, I also really want to come but have been foiled by the day job several times now.

a while back you recommended the original massey hall CD with no overdubbed bass, I got it, and it's a revelation! I learned to sing the parker solos years back and it was always annoying with the bass, the original recording is much nicer.

[Alex Haines]

Hi Ethan. Love your writing! Hugely admire the "Bud Powell Anthology" and learnt so much from it. I was speaking with a pianist friend of mine about the piece and some points you made really hit home. The 'singing' quality of Bud for example and also the tension created between his left and right hand. I also enjoyed your "All in The Mix" post although I should re-read it before attempting to continue any worthy dialogue/debate. "Notes & Tones" is a great book and I'm glad you reminded me to check it out again!

I would like to ask about pure improvisation and perhaps what you have done to aid your goal in improvising purely? Do you practice slow improvising for example? One of my teachers is Geoff Simkins, who is a really incredible alto player who closely followed the ideas Tristano/Konitz had about [pure]improvising. Geoff almost invariably talks about slow improvising in our lessons. (There's a great record called "Sippin' At Bells", with guitarist Dave Cliff who played with Konitz, Marsh and Peter Ind in Europe back in the '70's. Check it out).

You mentioned that you pursue this goal when playing jazz standards. Why not in other material you play? What is different about, say Mark Turner's or your tunes that means you can't or don't improvise as purely? Forgive me if I'm reading too much into this!

(One other little thing!) You have inspired me to read/write more about music and am starting to plan a piece about my favourite guitarist, Jim Hall. Your essay on Bud and all your other pieces are just about the best models for this kind of work I can think of. Any advice on writing and getting the most out of the transcribing part of it would be so appreciated!
Thanks,
Alex

[Ethan Iverson]

@Paul: Yes, the non-overdubbed is the way to go!

@Alex: Thanks. For me improvising is just part of jazz. To really play the blues, "pure improvisation" isn't relevant. In some TBP pieces I don't improvise at all. For that matter when I play a slow standard ballad I really love I would usually know a lot of the voicings etc. in advance. (On LIVE AT SMALLS Street and I use Strayhorn's harmony on the two Strayhorn tracks.)

But the idea of "tabula rasa" on a swinging tune we all know remains compelling. However, the more I learn about it, the more I think that the real bebop is not all that improvised. If I wrote "All in the Mix" now I might look at that further.

I do some slow practice but probably nothing like the Tristano tradition. I should do more of that...

I don't really have any advice about writing, just start and keep at it. One thing about transcribing, I really like the non-"jazzy" fonts on computer programs. If it's a "classical" font I feel like I have to work a little harder to get the details right. Billy Hart always says jazz is classical music. Fuck that "jazzy" font.

[Philip]

Hello!

Some other classic dates featuring Rivers that, besides being a testament to breadth of his abilities, might be worth adding to the list are Bobby Hutcherson's 'Dialogue' and Dave Holland's 'Conference of the Birds'. 'Dimensions and Extensions' is another Rivers date with great writing and playing, though in quite a different way to his other Blue Note stuff.
Andrew Hill's 'Change' on the whole never quite worked for me, although Rivers shines on the Andrew Hill Mosaic box (alongside Woody Shaw!). A good chunk of the first disc from the Mosaic (which if you're a fan of Hill's 60s work is certainly worth checking out) features DTM favourite Ron Carter with Ben Riley or, on three tracks... Paul Motian!

(also, great post by Red Sullivan, Gordon Beck is a revelation to me.)

[Matt Kassel]

At your behest, Ethan, I am going to see Barry Harris this week at the Vanguard. Greatly looking forward to it--I've never seen him. Perhaps I'll see you there.

[Max Hully]

Hey Ethan. First of all, thanks for this blog. It has been an invaluable resource for me, and looks at jazz from an angle that really resonates with me.

Secondly, I'd like to ask you about rhythm. A reoccurring theme on DTM seems to be the jazz beat. You've asked a lot of people about the jazz beat and seem to have thought a lot about it. Do you have any advice about developing a stronger sense of time and generally swinging harder? Any exercises you've discovered?

[misfitswearit]

"pure improvisation" can shake out like "truly American." you got the apologists impressed by everything jazz, and you got the nihilists who think they're so smart that they say there's no such thing as truly or pure. the apologists wrote the ken burns documentary. the nihilists either are waiting to release their complete "obscure musician" transcriptions, or else they're those jive-ass dudes who practice licks, play them like a sweaty porn actor, and always expect the rhythm section to bend to them. fuck them and their jazzy fonts!

[simon barker]

Hi Ethan
Here's a nice Paul Motian tribute from Australian jazz critic John Shand:
http://www.jazz-planet.com/2011/12/paul-motian-conception-vessel/

[Ethan Iverson]

@Philip: Red will appreciate that comment.

I know a lot of those Rivers records, of course. Now, I haven't heard the Andrew with Ron and Paul since high school. However, two things: to my ears then, Ron was playing electric.

And, more importantly, I asked Paul about this date after he started playing with Ron with Frisell. He denied it took place. He was absolutely certain that if he had ever recorded with Andrew Hill, he would have remembered it, because for many years in the 1970's Hill was his neighbor and did his taxes!

I keep on meaning to run this down, but I don't have that Mosaic box. (Last time I checked that was the only way to get it.) SO: you think it is Motian?

@Matt: OK!

@Max: Wow, great question. Maybe I should make a post about this when I think I have a good answer. Great jazz masters make fun of the metronome, but hey, if you are not a master, the metronome can help. I've been putting the click between 10 and 20, getting a couple of bars in between articulations. That's fun. Then there's clave practice. And now I think running the standard pattern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_pattern at the same time as 4/4 (like 16 eighth notes against the ground six or twelve) is relevant. But I don't know if, say, Ron Carter, would agree.

@misfitswearit: Love Dewey's solo on that tune! Actually, love Keith's as well.

@Simon: thanks...

[Red Sullivan]

With regard to Philip's post, above:
I can add that Ron Carter has said (I heard this personally, I was in the room) that his date with Frisell and Motian was the first time he EVER played with Paul, that he wished it had occurred sooner, and that what was most gratifying, for him, was Paul's sound - particularly the overtones of Paul's cymbals. He said this allowed real room for the bass to breathe, for the bass register to sing freely.
He further said that he was really looking forward to the week they were about to do in The Blue Note, then forthcoming, both to capatalise on this, and to see if they could go on to find a rhythmic hook-up too, and start swinging. (Pretty much his exact words - I was hanging on every one).

Also, e.i. , above, now, when you say "Improvising is just a part of jazz", and not even always relevant (I feel certainly not relevant to a definition), I could not agree with you more! Yet, it's a point I've rarely seen articulated, and an important one.
Of course, for someone like Konitz, the opposite is true; and I love that too.

[Ethan Iverson]

@red: thanks, maestro.

Ok, but it must be said that Ron probably doesn't remember everybody he recorded with, how could he? And conversely, now that I think about it, the fact that Andrew did Paul's taxes would have given him the connection to hire P for three tunes. AH hardly ever got a white drummer (although Altschul is on something somewhere and there must be others) and indeed, this may be the only Blue Note date w Paul (not that it came out at the time, anyway). My curiousity is aroused. If you feel like it, Philip send my those three tunes on mp3 to my masterclass email and I will pass judgment.

[misfitswearit]

check the many versions of "frank sinatra" "please be kind" on youtube. forget definitions, that is someone who improvised more than a lot of jazz musicians. responding to the tempo, the band, the room, the day. he even gestures differently, no careful choreography. of course dewey is a fierce improviser! and keith at carnegie hall tomorrow night!!

[ATI]

I would bet my bottom Dollar that is PM playing drums listed on the Mosiac Andrew Hill set not his usual kit sound but the touch phrasing etc. are there.

[Red Sullivan]

Check with Michael Cuscuna.

[Ethan Iverson]

@ATI: send me mp3s? My AH twofer "one for one" is long gone

[matt]

Hey Ethan

i too would be at the masterclass but i'm working today and can't get down to the city from the hudson valley.

if you ever do one of these on friday sat or sun (maybe not the best time to do a masterclass?) i'll most likely be there.

thanks for the blog!