Forumesque 7

Sarah Deming finishes in Washington.. 

Jeremy Denk explicates Beethoven. 

Chris Albertson has more on Ray Bryant in 1972.

---

I’m on tour in Italy with doubtful internet, but before I take August off:  

Forumesque 7 is an opportunity to weigh in on recent posts and anything in the contents.    Factual corrections are welcomed;  general questions are fine too.  Several people complained to me recently that they emailed the old TBP contact address about something on DTM and didn't hear back.  Apologies!  You can resubmit your question here.  The comments automatically close after a week.

07/19/2011

« previous | Main | next »

Comments

[Jon Wertheim]

Hey Ethan,

No Francis Davis on your recent book list? I would've thought maybe his "In The Moment" would've shown up?

Giddins had a lot covered in the '80s, but jazz criticism in the 1980s would have been a lot less with Davis. His work on the Marsalis question (pretty early on in 1986) is good - he brings up the point that the problem with Wynton/Branford was, largely, too much exposure too soon. He comes up with some examples of their careers moving faster than they themselves could develop, a hypothesis not often advanced these days.

Great writing as always,
jon

[Ed]

How do you count the verse of the Lithium cover?

[PW]

Nothing urgent, but I did send you a note at TBP wondering if you'd considered asking Richard Davis for an interview. I took his jazz history class a couple times, and the man is a fountain of good stories. It might be less of a musicology chat than a lot of your interviews (I got essentially banned from the rec.music.bluenote board and called a libelist for repeating a lewd story he told to our entire class.), but I think he has a unique position as someone who's worked in virtually every jazz genre from bop through to free and fusion. Sarah Vaughan to Anthony Braxton, with of course many truly seminal engagements in between. He can be reached at his University of Wisconsin address [redacted]

[Alexander Rocha]

One brief question, one unlikely/fanboyish request:

(1) I recently got the Max Roach Trio album featuring the Legendary Hassan on piano, and wondered whether you'd heard it; seems like the sort of thing that would be up your alley. It also strikes me as the sort of album that's "famously obscure," if you know what I mean - I've been aware of it for about ten years before finally bothering to check it out. (I like it!)

(2) One of the many things I think is great about DTM is the window it offers into the way jazz musicians - or at least the ones in your extended clique - talk to each other about, and think about, the music. In particular, as you've observed, most musicians seem uninterested in articulating a lot of this stuff in print (whether in an interview or by their own hand), which is why having a fellow musician as interlocutor can be helpful. To that end - helping us understand something about the process of being a jazz musician in 2011, say - I wonder if you might consider writing something (when you have time!) that reflects on your own development as a pianist. I've found the glimpses that are tangential in other pieces you've written (your relationship with the playing of Mal Waldron, Paul Bley, etc.) intriguing, and this strikes me as the sort of process that, to nonprofessionals, is underexamined or kind of mysterious. Of course, I understand if this is something that you're uninterested, uncomfortable, or unwilling to do; sometimes when a musician I admire is asked how he developed his own "voice" the reply makes me think the musician really doesn't know beyond vague terms, and other times I almost get the impression that they'd feel too embarrassed to reveal what they were thinking about at less mature stages of development.

(Maybe there's a connection here to sports platitudes? "Copy a bunch of people and your own voice will emerge" seems to be at once as uninformative and yet as true as "keep your eye on the ball," which really is the answer to a variety of athletic struggles.)

[Ethan Iverson]

@everybody: kinda sticky internet here -- I'm not sure what kind of ultra-fast robots you might have to follow my comments updates, but bear with me --

[Ethan Iverson]

OK, seems to working now.

@Jon: I have enjoyed reading F. Davis in the Voice but don't own any of his books. In my "'73-'90 redux" post I name-check him and Howard Mandel (also sadly missing from my shelf) as the "the ones that were there, the ones that did the parsing and the tastemaking."

http://dothemath.typepad.com/dtm/73-90-redux.html

@Ed: GOOD QUESTION! I don't know. I have never counted it, myself, only felt it. It is Reid's rhythm. Wendy had to work with the tape extensively to fit the melody on top. Thanks.

@PW: I'd love to talk to Mr. Davis. Thanks for the inspiration. Until that happens, Hank Shteamer did some marvelous work with him. Did you miss it?

http://darkforcesswing.blogspot.com/2010/05/richard-davis-at-80-part-ii-archive.html

I think the links are dead now, but you could pester HS for a re-up.

@Alexander: Yes, I know about the Legendary Hassan. Great record. Ask Nasheet Waits about it sometime.

About my own stuff: aw, thanks! I will bear your request in mind. However, the older I get the more impossible it seems to write about myself. Still, it's nice to know you found those pieces interesting. For what it's worth, I think obsessing about lesser-known artists like Mal and Paul can be just as fruitful as learning the mainstream like Herbie and McCoy.

[David "Bruce" Smith]

Ethan,

Thanks for the ever-continuing class in jazz history. Out of all the blogs I regularly visit, yours is the only one where I feel like I learn something every time I check in.

Also wanted you to know that you scored a nice shout-out in front of a lot of musicians last month at Victor Wooten's annual Music & Nature Camp. Rachel Z & Omar Hakim dropped in to play and do some clinics as "The Trio Of OZ" (with Victor sitting in on upright), and Rachel explained to all of us that she gives credit to The Bad Plus for paving the way and making it cool for jazz musicians to cover "unlikely" modern pop/rock sources and styles; Omar strongly agreed.  Later, in a personal conversation, Rachel emphatically told me that she loves TBP's work and to pass that along to you. [Their trio album is a gem; if you only have time to check out one track you may like what they did with The Police's "King Of Pain" - it was a knockout live.]

Very pleased to see that The Bistro in St. Louis has you booked again in January. I'll certainly be making the trek from Pittsburgh again, at least until I can convince the local promoters to bring you guys back to western PA.

"Bruce"
David Bruce Smith
Zelienople, PA

[Peter]

Hey Ethan! Just wanted to say as a St. Louis native, thank you for always playing w/ TBP right after new years eve. Couldn't have a much better way than seeing you guys at the bistro to kick off the new year.

You can feel free to not answer this question, but it is something I've wondered. On the quartet album w/ Billy Hart, what was the decision-making process for playing the head numerous times up front? I mean, as stupid as it is to ask, was there some message meant to be delivered by the un-conventional approach or was it purely for aesthetic reasons or just in the spirit of the moment?

[Tom Storer]

It's a shame the jazz writings of Jacques Réda (b. 1929) have never been translated from French to English (to my knowledge). He's mostly known as an excellent poet. His jazz writings are wry, knowledgeable, insightful, passionate and curmudgeonly, all at once, and he's particularly interested in jazz piano. I'm sure there are valuable books on jazz from many national communities that never make it into English. Someone should write a thesis (or maybe they already have).

[Ron]

Hi Ethan

You advertise on several occasions your idea of jazz for the 21st century being (or should be) a band thing, rather than the traditional leader with a support group. I failed to find an extensive article from you on the subject. Can you point to one if it exists? Or elaborate a bit on it if you haven't done so yet.
I think I can follow your general idea, TBP being the perfect example, but I seem to have too many 'but's and 'although's.
Here are some:
The core of it is easily traced to the pop/rock band tradition. But how many of those pop bands are true 'Bands' with a steady long-lived line-up and equal artistic weight for each member? Most are still essentially a writer/performer plus (a shaky) backing band. Why should it work better in jazz, maybe the most individualistic music form there is?
On the other hand, some long-running modern jazz combos like say the Dave Holland Quintet, Keith Jarrett's standards trio or even the Schlippenbach Trio are bona-fide bands in anything but name (or aren't they?) whereas recent equal-rights-combos with names (JAMES Farm) seem more like an ad-hok gluing together of big names than an actual group. How do you define the new jazz BAND?
Another thing is the financial aspect. In the wake of the Undead festival noise you claimed that a band is a better way of surviving in the business. How so?
Oh and BTW thanks for DTM and TBP.
Never stop…

[Steven M.]

Re: Rite at Stanford, 8/2??

We saw you at the Catalina recently (we were so close that we were seated apparently inside Dave King's bass drum), and when we lived in SF, we used to see you all the time at Yoshi's, Herbst, etc. Alas, we now live in Vegas (will you ever, ever, ever, ever come here? - Stanley Clarke, Al DiMeola, Carl Palmer, and Christian Scott have - I can recommend venues and, being a sometime-writer for NPR's Desert Companion magazine, can likely get your gig a plug).

To the immediate point: my wife is due on August 19 (making her about 8 1/2 months on 8/2) (yes, Stanford has a great hospital and our other kids were born there, but I'm more concerned about the drive) ... but we might just do it IFF (excuse the mathematical notation) if you are absolutely, positively performing Rite there. Or if you can point us toward another time you'll be performing it sometime in the next few months in LA, SF or ... dreaming here -- Vegas ... perhaps we'll regretfully pass. But we both love you, love Stravinsky, and love Rite. So we simply have to see it. Hence this question. Thanks in advance for your reply.

Regards,
Steven

[Ethan Iverson]

@David “Bruce”: That’s nice to hear! I will check that music out.

@Peter: There’s a story in BLACK MUSIC about Coltrane playing the head of “Confirmation” over and over, that was where the idea came from. And doing it three times in a row gives Billy something really meaty to work with...

@Tom: I’m sure you are right, there are several Japanese books on jazz I wish were translated. Of course, when you get to classical music, the problem is much worse.

@Ron: I haven’t written an article. In response to your questions: 1) Most of our favorite rock bands were real bands, not a singer/songwriter with back-up (which is often less interesting). Rush, Led Zeppelin, and the Police come to mind, there are many more. 2) Ask the player in a jazz group with a certified leader if they feel like a sideman or a band member. There will probably be a lot of different answers -- I can’t speak for them all! How the money is split is always a crucial question. 3) Bands can survive the business better because everyone has to be invested in it equally. And maybe a good division of labor can happen: someone runs the social media, someone books the gigs, someone drives the van, etc.

@Steven M. Thank you so much! The Rite won't be at Stanford but it will be coming to San Francisco next year. Good luck with the new baby!

[Tom Gsteiger]

Ted Gioia's The History of Jazz & An Imperfect Art are great books, I think ... and there's also some really great jazz fiction, especially The Bear Comes Home by Rafi Zabor ... Do you already know what rep you're gonna play in Langnau (rite or no rite?)?

[Ethan Iverson]

@Tom: Thanks, TBP's shows are non-Rite unless advertised as such.

I always like reading Gioia, in fact I think someone sent me the latest edition of HISTORY OF JAZZ but it is still in the "to be read" section, not on the shelf.

I'm sure it is good, however single-volume histories are not what I'm racing to get to these days. The two on my list have particular values: Stearns is outdated but still has a great vibe, especially about race. Porter and Ullmann have excellent musical examples.

@everybody else: other groovy and much better-annotated book lists are now up by Jon Wertheim and Hank Shteamer.

http://adevoutmusician.typepad.com/blog/2011/07/the-song-book.html

http://darkforcesswing.blogspot.com/2011/07/15-favorite-music-books.html

[Sean]

Thanks for the Ray Bryant/folklore post, among many. So now that your high school pal's been on Letterman (that's sweet), what it'll take for TBP to make an appearance? Or start your own show? Kickin' built-in house band! Seriously, on a regular basis, is there anything music talk-related worth watching on television? Even Charlie Rose sounds like a college student b.s.'ing for a mandatory art course.

[Dan Strange]

Hi Ethan,

Given your Anglophile tendencies I take it you have come across another v. recent Rite of Spring adaptation by a British jazz duo consisting of Dylan Howe (drummer) and Will Butterworth (piano). http://www.dylanhowe.com/dh-will-butterworth-duo-stravinsky-.html

I caught this live at the Vortex over a year ago now and before the recording. Would be interested to know how you think their take compares to yours.

Great show at King's Place last year BTW - v. different venue from Jazz cafe!

Dan, London

[Ethan Iverson]

@Sean: I appreciate your enthusiasm...

Somewhere there is a tape of TBP on Conan. And from the very early days, CBS Saturday Morning. (God, that was hell, showing up at 4 AM to the studio.) I admit to no other knowledge of contemporary talk or news TV, sorry. I think the internet has supplanted it for me and most of my peers.

@Dan: I wrote briefly about Howe/Butterworth here:

http://dothemath.typepad.com/dtm/2011/04/the-rites-continue.html

I haven't heard the whole thing, but obviously I'm for this kind of experimentation.

[Chris Albertson]

Thank you for pointing people to my blog. It might please you to hear that the traffic has been impressive.

Thank you also for your blog, which is even more impressive.

[Andrew Shields]

A while back, you mentioned good collections of recordings of Monk, and I wondered if you are familiar with "Casino," by Alexander von Schlippenbach, on Intakt Records, which is a 3-CD set of all of Monk's extant compositions, in von Schlippenbach's arrangements, varying from very straight to quite out there.

[Ethan Iverson]

@Chris: Thanks, and thanks for YOUR blog. Great stuff! The book on Bessie is sensational.

@Andrew: Yes, I've heard some of it, and also the von Schippenbach trio with Sonny Murray playing Monk. I prefer that pianist in his own music than Monk. My essay explains why.

http://dothemath.typepad.com/dtm/2011/04/philadelphia-story.html

Although I don't mention AVS, he qualifies as someone who connects Monk more to the avant-garde than the beat, which I think is misguided. Fascinating pianist, though, I have a good disc with Evan Parker.

[Sean]

The Ray Bryant post added to the hunch that jazz schools would do better to distribute DTM than Aebersolds......Saw that Conan show! And consider forgotten the mornin' that began at 4am. Anyway, yeah, there's lots of gray area between internet and t.v. All the good shows have full internet content, which in addition to the vastly more insightful music interviews here - and this!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH1URa1laSI - suggests that you guys could make great hay out of YouTube. You've probably already considered it.

[Alexander Rocha]

Is there someone you've heard who takes Monk further in the early-20th-century-Euro-modernism direction pitch-wise but still maintains connects with the jazz beat? I suppose this is as susceptible as anything else to your other charge, of "humorous" plink-plonk "Monking around". (I haven't heard the George Russell - or any G.R. - you mention in that essay, which I should get on, because I keep reading things that indicate that, say, Bill Evans with George Russell would be a Bill Evans I enjoyed, etc.) Actually, I would've been curious to hear Monk as interpreted by the Legendary Hassan, to tie it back to my first comment in this thread.

[Tim Dries]

Hello,
I am trying to remember all of the items that I wanted to bring up in this "forumesque." I have three things that I wanted to mention:

1. You had mentioned in a post devoted to Monk performances a brilliant Steve Lacy album called Evidence (I really like "The Mystery Song" from that album). I am not an expert on Monk interpreters, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that Lacy is one of the few that pulls of Monk's unique songs. You had mentioned that on the album, the song "Evidence" is performed as a simple hemiola (I apologize if that is not an exact quote). I was wondering if you could elaborate on that. I think Lacy is in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVj57fQBU6o

To my ears, the "Evidence" from the Lacy album, and the "Evidence" from Straight No Chaser provides evidence that Lacy does Monk justice... but I could very well be wrong.

2. Being a jazz novice, I must admit that I did not know of Henry Threadgill until I read about him in my first copy of Downbeat about a year ago. I just picked up Air Songs yesterday, and it is just great. I liked your interview with Threadgill, but often I found the tone to be "kids these days..." I know jazz (as well as other arts) has an immense history to absorb. I think at one point he knocked one of his students for not having read "Ulysses" by James Joyce. Can one really judge another person by if they have read "Ulysses?" At times I felt like Threadgill was heading in this direction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rz2jRHA9fo
I know Threadgill probably gets very disappointed when he has students that don't read any books outside of school, but I feel like he would think I'm an idiot because I haven't sat down and read Ulysses.

3. The music on the cd I purchased of Never Stop is top notch. I'm really glad I bought it; however, does the Bad Plus have much input into the packaging/artwork? In an age where few people buy physical cd's I feel like the cover of the album makes it seems like it has been a challenge for the group to stay together for ten years. Also, the picture on the inside of the booklet is extremely pixilated. I know the band put liner notes on NPR's web page, but the absence of liner notes with the cd (plus the price of the cd, which I have no idea if the band has any control over) makes it seem like you are just trying to please the music buying market that buys music on iTunes. I'm not trying to be a curmudgeon, but I'm just sayin'...

I know there is a lot in this post, and you may have spotty internet connection, so take your time to reflect on any of the above mentioned.

-Tim

ps Did TBP discuss playing any of Keith Jarrett's American band repertoire with Joshua Redman? I know TBP are big fans, and Joshua is Dewey's son. I was wondering if that idea was ever mentioned. Give me a call if you need a triangle player for a Fort Yawuh tribute album!

[paul s]

Ethan,
your post a long time back on the click of a particular kind of a metronome inspired me to write a metronome iphone app that has decent click sounds.

do you remember the name of the metronome you mentioned that has the great click? I'd like to add that sound.

thanks, and always enjoy the blog. it has inspired me to blog a lot more about jazz than I used to, and to finally learn pres' "lady be good" solo!

--paul

[Ethan Iverson]

@Sean: Thanks!

@Alexander: I have enjoyed various "out" Monk performances by Sam Newsome, Bennie Wallace, Steve Lacy/Roswell Rudd, Han Bennink, and especially Paul Motian, probably my favorite Monk interpreter. There are others, too...

@Tim: I'm sure Lacy played "Evidence" a lot, and probably played the tune differently over the years. In fact, Monk himself evolved it over time. However, on that great Lacy/Cherry album, the tune is a straight waltz against the four (a hemiola) in the band, and to me that is a little over-simplified: I never heard Monk be that straight with it. Great record though. I just like complaining about how Monk's music should be played correctly...

2) You always have to take into consideration where people are coming from. Given his importance, Mr. Threadgill is well within his rights to complain about a New School audience that never heard him or Cecil Taylor. I admit I have never read ULYSSES, nor do I plan to!!!

3)Noted about your dislike of NEVER STOP package. As of now, we aren't using liner notes.

4) I personally am not up to the challenge of playing KJ 4tet music w. Josh Redman. I would try to veto that idea if someone else in the band suggested it! I sound too much like Keith sometimes as it is...

@paul s.: Thanks for reading. I used to have a great Seiko metronome that Mark Turner recommended for a woody click.